HackerPapers

arXiv:2509.02046cs.LG

Fantastic Pretraining Optimizers and Where to Find Them

Kaiyue Wen, David Hall, Tengyu Ma, Percy Liang

HN submission. Found in a submission link or body. Submitters do not count as commenters in the main ranking; a submission is not an endorsement.

Abstract

AdamW has long been the dominant optimizer in language model pretraining, despite numerous claims that alternative optimizers offer 1.4 to 2x speedup. We posit that two methodological shortcomings have obscured fair comparisons and hindered practical adoption: (i) unequal hyperparameter tuning and (ii) limited or misleading evaluation setups. To address these two issues, we conduct a systematic study of ten deep learning optimizers across four model scales (0.1B-1.2B parameters) and data-to-model ratios (1-8x the Chinchilla optimum). We find that fair and informative comparisons require rigorous hyperparameter tuning and evaluations across a range of model scales and data-to-model ratios, performed at the end of training. First, optimal hyperparameters for one optimizer may be suboptimal for another, making blind hyperparameter transfer unfair. Second, the actual speedup of many proposed optimizers over well-tuned baselines is lower than claimed and decreases with model size to only 1.1x for 1.2B parameter models. Thirdly, comparing intermediate checkpoints before reaching the target training budgets can be misleading, as rankings between two optimizers can flip during training due to learning rate decay. Through our thorough investigation, we find that all the fastest optimizers such as Muon and Soap, use matrices as preconditioners -- multiplying gradients with matrices rather than entry-wise scalars. However, the speedup of matrix-based optimizers is inversely proportional to model scale, decreasing from 1.4x over AdamW for 0.1B parameter models to merely 1.1x for 1.2B parameter models.

arXiv comments
108 pages, 8 figures, reproducible runs available at https://wandb.ai/marin-community/optimizer-scaling
Journal reference
DOI
Subjects
cs.LGMachine Learning cs.AIArtificial Intelligence stat.MLMachine Learning (Statistics)

On Hacker News

No comments linking this paper were found in the collected sources. Found in 1 HN submission from Sep 2025 to Sep 2025. Open submission discussions.

Comments linking this paper, per year.

Discussed in comments0 threads

No comments linking this paper were found in the collected sources. Open submission discussions.

Submitted to Hacker News

Connected through shared HN threads, not inferred similarity or a recommendation.