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arXiv:2308.04445cs.LG

Getting from Generative AI to Trustworthy AI: What LLMs might learn from Cyc

Doug Lenat, Gary Marcus

Abstract

Generative AI, the most popular current approach to AI, consists of large language models (LLMs) that are trained to produce outputs that are plausible, but not necessarily correct. Although their abilities are often uncanny, they are lacking in aspects of reasoning, leading LLMs to be less than completely trustworthy. Furthermore, their results tend to be both unpredictable and uninterpretable. We lay out 16 desiderata for future AI, and discuss an alternative approach to AI which could theoretically address many of the limitations associated with current approaches: AI educated with curated pieces of explicit knowledge and rules of thumb, enabling an inference engine to automatically deduce the logical entailments of all that knowledge. Even long arguments produced this way can be both trustworthy and interpretable, since the full step-by-step line of reasoning is always available, and for each step the provenance of the knowledge used can be documented and audited. There is however a catch: if the logical language is expressive enough to fully represent the meaning of anything we can say in English, then the inference engine runs much too slowly. That's why symbolic AI systems typically settle for some fast but much less expressive logic, such as knowledge graphs. We describe how one AI system, Cyc, has developed ways to overcome that tradeoff and is able to reason in higher order logic in real time. We suggest that any trustworthy general AI will need to hybridize the approaches, the LLM approach and more formal approach, and lay out a path to realizing that dream.

arXiv comments
21 pages, 1 Figure
Journal reference
DOI
Subjects
cs.LGMachine Learning cs.AIArtificial Intelligence

On Hacker News

Linked by 6 identifiable commenters in 7 comments across 6 threads, from Sep 2023 to Apr 2025. Found in 3 HN submissions from Aug 2023 to Sep 2023. Open submission discussions.

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Discussed in comments6 threads

  1. Obituary for Cyc 1 comment
    • See also (Lenat's final paper): D. Lenat, G. Marcus, "Getting from Generative AI to Trustworthy AI: What LLMs might learn from Cyc", https://arxiv.org/abs/2308.04445

      musicaleView on HNParent context

    • > Marcus has always been a mouth just trying to take down neural networks. This isn't true. Marcus is against "pure NN" AI, especially in situations where reliability is desired, as would be the case with AGI/ASI. He advocates [1] neurosymbolic AI, i.e. hybridizing NNs with…

      trottView on HNParent context

    • To parent: the spatial reasoning and blind person were great counterexamples. It still might be OK despite the blind exceptions if it showed general reasoning. To OP: I like your project goal. I think you should look at prior, reasoning engines that tried to build common sense.…

      nickpsecurityView on HNParent context

  2. Lenat and Cyc 1 comment
    • A very interesting review from 1993 by John F. Sowa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Sowa) of the Cyc system as presented in Lenat's 1989 book (ISBN 0-201-51752-3) and his 1991 presentation at IBM Research in Yorktown. > In June, Doug sent me an article he was working on…

      RochusView on HNParent context

    • One thing I thought was amusing was that there was a burst of articles about Cyc that got mentioned when Doug Lenat died including this arXiv paper https://arxiv.org/abs/2308.04445 and that one said that Cyc had over 1,100 special purpose reasoning engines. The general purpose…

      PaulHouleView on HNParent context

  3. Doug Lenat has died 2 comments
    • https://arxiv.org/pdf/2308.04445.pdf "Getting from Generative AI to Trustworthy AI: What LLMs might learn from Cyc" Lenat's last paper (July 31st, with Gary Marcus) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37354601 This may disabuse you of two ideas: 1. that NN models (LLMs) exhibit…

      PaulDavisThe1stView on HNParent context

    • https://arxiv.org/pdf/2308.04445.pdf is precisely Doug Lenat & Gary Marcus' thoughts on how to combine them (July 31st 2023, Lenat's last paper)

      PaulDavisThe1stView on HNParent context

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